179: Villains Who Had a Point

Ok, hear us out... we know they're villains, but some of them kinda had a point to their villany. We're gonna make our case for villains who had a point in doing what they did. Let's see if you agree with us!

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Transcript

00:01:00.448 --> 00:01:02.408
Joshua: Welcome to Geekology 101.

00:01:02.428 --> 00:01:03.468
Joshua: My name is Joshua.

00:01:03.768 --> 00:01:04.728
Diego: And I'm Diego.

00:01:05.068 --> 00:01:11.328
Joshua: And today, we're going to be diving into villains that kind of had a point.

00:01:11.788 --> 00:01:15.448
Diego: Yeah, they say that a broken clock is right twice a day.

00:01:17.948 --> 00:01:18.828
Joshua: They, they say that?

00:01:18.828 --> 00:01:19.468
Diego: They say that.

00:01:19.488 --> 00:01:20.268
Diego: You've never heard that?

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Joshua: I've heard it, like, I've never heard anyone say that.

00:01:23.308 --> 00:01:23.788
Diego: Really?

00:01:24.228 --> 00:01:25.388
Joshua: Like, I've heard-

00:01:25.408 --> 00:01:26.568
Diego: We say it about you all the time.

00:01:26.728 --> 00:01:26.988
Joshua: I've-

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Diego: So sad.

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Diego: He's crying.

00:01:32.128 --> 00:01:38.848
Diego: Anyway, yeah, so we're going to talk about how some villains actually kind of made a good point.

00:01:39.108 --> 00:01:46.908
Diego: Like, maybe their tactics or their methods were, you know, murderous, genocidal, you know, those things.

00:01:47.968 --> 00:01:51.848
Diego: But it's kind of had a good point deep down inside.

00:01:52.608 --> 00:01:59.128
Joshua: It's a classic example of like, he's a little confused, but he has the spirit.

00:02:00.508 --> 00:02:18.548
Diego: Well, I mean, I feel like that's a, you know, something you can give to like Red Hood or, you know, a kind of the Punisher, but, you know, some guys take it pretty far, like, you know, erasing a third of all life in the entire universe.

00:02:18.568 --> 00:02:20.868
Diego: It's a little, it's a little much.

00:02:21.268 --> 00:02:23.188
Joshua: But like the motive behind it was good, though.

00:02:23.228 --> 00:02:23.888
Diego: I guess so.

00:02:24.168 --> 00:02:25.528
Diego: So let's go ahead and start there, right?

00:02:26.248 --> 00:02:34.888
Diego: So there are some villains who have a purpose that is like, that they consider higher than themselves.

00:02:35.368 --> 00:02:35.708
Joshua: Yeah.

00:02:35.768 --> 00:02:36.108
Diego: Right?

00:02:36.248 --> 00:02:40.668
Joshua: Like that they consider would be doing good for everybody.

00:02:40.788 --> 00:02:41.208
Diego: Yeah.

00:02:41.208 --> 00:02:52.988
Diego: Even, even, even if people don't understand where they're coming from, like they consider that they are ultimately doing some good or whatever for existence or the planet or whatever.

00:02:53.068 --> 00:02:55.688
Joshua: And I actually have a couple examples of that.

00:02:56.248 --> 00:03:11.808
Joshua: My first is definitely one that you were thinking about too, Thanos, of course, which, I mean, obviously his whole thing is just wiping half of existence throughout the entire universe.

00:03:11.828 --> 00:03:12.868
Diego: Is it half or a third?

00:03:12.888 --> 00:03:13.388
Joshua: It's a half.

00:03:13.468 --> 00:03:14.188
Joshua: It's a half.

00:03:14.208 --> 00:03:15.068
Joshua: It was half?

00:03:15.308 --> 00:03:15.628
Joshua: Yeah.

00:03:16.848 --> 00:03:30.488
Joshua: And his, yeah, his whole thing is just wiping half of existence to create balance because he like sensed that everything was getting a little bit too, like, I guess, overcrowded and just.

00:03:31.148 --> 00:03:31.328
Diego: Yeah.

00:03:31.348 --> 00:03:33.428
Diego: And his whole point about like resources, right?

00:03:33.448 --> 00:03:33.728
Joshua: Yeah.

00:03:33.808 --> 00:03:41.528
Diego: When he was talking to, who was it, Gamora, then he was saying, you know, like, everything is finite.

00:03:41.548 --> 00:03:43.068
Diego: Resources are finite.

00:03:43.748 --> 00:03:48.528
Diego: We can't, like, reproduce infinitely because resources are eventually going to run out.

00:03:49.328 --> 00:03:55.288
Diego: And so, and of course, right, like, that's kind of like the whole eco-terrorist mentality.

00:03:55.308 --> 00:04:05.888
Diego: Like, yeah, we're going to go and do horrible things to people that we consider are responsible for hurting the planet or, you know, whatever the ecosystem that we live in.

00:04:06.208 --> 00:04:08.528
Diego: And that's, you know, it's a pretty valid point.

00:04:08.548 --> 00:04:12.408
Diego: Like, yeah, like on Earth, we have an issue with overpopulation, right?

00:04:12.468 --> 00:04:20.708
Joshua: Yeah, but then there's kind of the, like, opposite side to that, because obviously nobody is 100% right ever.

00:04:21.288 --> 00:04:32.768
Joshua: So like, obviously, there's the, like, wiping half of existence, but obviously that half will come back and will get even like, it'll grow larger than that.

00:04:33.188 --> 00:04:33.488
Diego: Right.

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Joshua: Eventually, could he not just knowing that that half of existence would come back and grow even larger, could he not just double or triple or quadruple the resources?

00:04:48.708 --> 00:04:49.988
Diego: Okay, right.

00:04:50.188 --> 00:04:51.248
Diego: That is a good question.

00:04:51.268 --> 00:05:05.028
Diego: Like, you got this thing that can basically alter reality in the form of the Infinity Gauntlet, can't you just, like, instead of reducing the amount of people that are consuming resources, increase the amount of resources to supply for all people.

00:05:05.168 --> 00:05:12.108
Joshua: It is, like, kind of a little bit, not really, but it's kind of like a glass half empty half full.

00:05:12.568 --> 00:05:28.648
Joshua: I feel like the half empty scenario would be the wiping one half of existence, and then half full in this scenario would be adding just double or just however many amount of resources, I feel like.

00:05:29.528 --> 00:05:30.988
Diego: Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying.

00:05:31.708 --> 00:05:36.808
Joshua: Because like that adding resources is more optimistic, I feel like.

00:05:37.628 --> 00:05:41.928
Joshua: And then it's just you're still like technically doing good.

00:05:41.948 --> 00:05:44.808
Joshua: It's just kind of in a more like cynical way.

00:05:45.268 --> 00:05:46.268
Diego: Right, right, right.

00:05:47.348 --> 00:06:07.368
Diego: Well, I think if you really sit down and think about it, the solution ultimately really does have to do with reducing population, because even if you increase resources, there's still the issue of space.

00:06:07.928 --> 00:06:08.268
Joshua: Yeah.

00:06:08.268 --> 00:06:08.588
Diego: Right.

00:06:08.708 --> 00:06:10.988
Diego: So what would Thanos then become?

00:06:11.008 --> 00:06:17.468
Diego: Like, you know, would he have to become a god to like start creating new planets, new worlds for people to go off onto?

00:06:17.488 --> 00:06:30.888
Diego: And then eventually you end up like with a problem of like locusts, like you just end up swarming the entirety of the universe, populating whatever planet can be populated so that you can continue to expand, right?

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Joshua: Yeah.

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Joshua: And I feel like sometimes in like a specifically in this situation, sometimes what seems like the more like bad or like evil quote unquote approach would be the one that is more effective.

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Diego: It is.

00:06:47.908 --> 00:06:48.208
Diego: Yeah.

00:06:48.308 --> 00:06:48.628
Diego: Yeah.

00:06:48.868 --> 00:06:55.908
Diego: Because, you know, the most pragmatic solution is always the one that doesn't take into consideration people's feelings, right?

00:06:56.748 --> 00:06:57.048
Diego: Yeah.

00:06:57.148 --> 00:06:57.908
Diego: It's a tough one.

00:06:57.928 --> 00:07:08.488
Diego: But honestly, like the core of it, I think it's like, it's almost impossible to disprove him.

00:07:08.948 --> 00:07:09.248
Joshua: Yeah.

00:07:09.588 --> 00:07:09.988
Diego: You know?

00:07:10.108 --> 00:07:10.448
Joshua: Yeah.

00:07:10.808 --> 00:07:15.148
Diego: Of course, it's one thing to like talk about it theoretically.

00:07:15.168 --> 00:07:17.688
Diego: And then another thing to be like, all right, let's do something about it.

00:07:18.748 --> 00:07:24.328
Diego: Like there's been countries that have, you know, imposed the limit on how many children people can have, for example.

00:07:25.568 --> 00:07:29.228
Diego: That's not, that doesn't seem like that terrible to me.

00:07:29.568 --> 00:07:29.948
Joshua: Yeah.

00:07:30.008 --> 00:07:32.128
Diego: You know, like seems like a pretty humane thing.

00:07:32.148 --> 00:07:36.308
Diego: You're not ending any lives, you're just preventing a whole bunch of more lives from being created.

00:07:38.368 --> 00:07:46.268
Diego: Or like people deciding, you know, nowadays a lot more people are deciding that they don't want to have any children, you know, they want to like kind of live life on their own, whatever.

00:07:47.408 --> 00:07:52.328
Diego: So, you know, I guess there's methods, there's other ways of trying to achieve that.

00:07:52.348 --> 00:07:56.528
Diego: But of course, they're not going to be as effective as let me snap my fingers and then half of everybody's gone.

00:07:56.788 --> 00:07:57.168
Joshua: Yeah.

00:07:57.408 --> 00:08:00.068
Diego: But then like, how long does the trauma take to heal?

00:08:00.088 --> 00:08:06.688
Diego: Like if the Avengers hadn't undone all that, how long would it have taken the universe to heal from an event like that?

00:08:06.708 --> 00:08:18.688
Joshua: You know, like I feel like it really, it definitely, it definitely couldn't have gotten to the same point that it was, I feel like.

00:08:18.848 --> 00:08:19.568
Diego: I think it would have.

00:08:19.588 --> 00:08:38.328
Joshua: Well, like it wouldn't be the same because some, like half of the universe means that like, it's not picking who is going to go, it's just, it's like the Infinity Gauntlet just knows half of the half of all of existence just gone.

00:08:38.728 --> 00:08:47.228
Joshua: So it could like, it could wipe some like really important people.

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Diego: Oh yeah, no doubt.

00:08:48.508 --> 00:08:50.528
Joshua: Like in people that would...

00:08:50.548 --> 00:08:54.368
Diego: Yeah, because that was one of Thanos' points is that it was going to be indiscriminate, like it was going to be random.

00:08:54.488 --> 00:08:54.828
Joshua: Yeah.

00:08:54.888 --> 00:09:03.988
Joshua: So like, people that could have helped the advancement of civilization and humanity would be white.

00:09:04.288 --> 00:09:04.848
Diego: Right, right.

00:09:05.248 --> 00:09:05.528
Diego: Yeah.

00:09:05.668 --> 00:09:06.368
Diego: Or flipped.

00:09:06.608 --> 00:09:25.488
Diego: There's other people, there's other villains that are, that have also spotted like similar problems with like organic beings, particularly on earth being responsible for like the downfall of the planet because of, you know, wars and because of violence and because of mistreatment of the environment, that sort of thing.

00:09:25.888 --> 00:09:28.208
Diego: Like Skynet, for example, right?

00:09:28.228 --> 00:09:32.988
Diego: And the whole term, in the Terminator world, Skynet is another one that kind of had a pretty good point.

00:09:33.068 --> 00:09:47.608
Diego: Like Skynet was basically like, I'm going to go ahead and eliminate the problem from this planet that is keeping this planet miserable, you know, and that's eventually going to end up driving the planet to its own destruction.

00:09:49.548 --> 00:09:51.928
Diego: You know, and they're machines, they're computers.

00:09:52.728 --> 00:09:56.768
Diego: So of course, you know, they're going to be like, very pragmatic about it.

00:09:56.788 --> 00:09:58.008
Diego: They're not going to care about feelings.

00:09:59.828 --> 00:10:01.608
Diego: And apparently they don't even care.

00:10:01.628 --> 00:10:10.808
Diego: Like the machine wouldn't even care about the fact that they are, you know, they're essentially, wiping out an entire species from the planet.

00:10:11.048 --> 00:10:11.348
Joshua: Yeah.

00:10:11.368 --> 00:10:24.748
Diego: Like they're thinking is, if this species has gotten evolved enough and powerful enough that they can destroy this planet, then I, as the number one defense of this planet, need to eradicate this virus, basically.

00:10:25.108 --> 00:10:25.488
Joshua: Yeah.

00:10:25.728 --> 00:10:30.948
Diego: Similar to also the machines in The Matrix.

00:10:31.108 --> 00:10:52.208
Diego: If you watch the Animatrix movies, those second renaissance or whatever, short films within the Animatrix that show the history of how it is that The Matrix came to be, they show how humans created artificial intelligence, created very humanoid kind of robots.

00:10:52.968 --> 00:10:56.328
Diego: It's kind of freaky that we're actually seeing that happening right now.

00:10:57.948 --> 00:10:58.128
Diego: Yeah.

00:10:58.788 --> 00:11:01.048
Diego: It's no longer like one day it'll happen.

00:11:01.208 --> 00:11:13.968
Diego: No, I just finished seeing a robot that is powered with open AI, artificial intelligence technology and it could reason and have a conversation with a person.

00:11:14.048 --> 00:11:16.048
Diego: You know how smart ChatGPT is.

00:11:16.068 --> 00:11:17.428
Joshua: Yeah, it's crazy.

00:11:17.848 --> 00:11:20.128
Diego: And it's now inside of a robot.

00:11:20.148 --> 00:11:21.108
Diego: And I'm watching that.

00:11:23.328 --> 00:11:27.328
Diego: Wait, does no one making these things watch Terminator and Matrix?

00:11:27.348 --> 00:11:29.268
Joshua: They put the open AI in a robot?

00:11:29.288 --> 00:11:32.008
Diego: Yeah, in a humanoid looking robot.

00:11:32.848 --> 00:11:33.248
Diego: Oh, wow.

00:11:33.468 --> 00:11:34.488
Diego: Yeah, yeah.

00:11:34.688 --> 00:11:35.728
Diego: It's pretty freaky, man.

00:11:35.748 --> 00:11:51.008
Diego: And so, you know, if we give these machines the ability to start like reasoning on their own and to have abstract thought, which I mean, you ask ChatGPT to write you something creative.

00:11:51.028 --> 00:11:57.748
Diego: Sure, it's pulling from other sources in the internet to put that together, but like, oh, or don't we do the same thing ultimately?

00:11:58.388 --> 00:12:11.608
Diego: Like when you're, if I tell you to write me a short story out of your own imagination, is it truly all coming out of your imagination or are you like pulling little bits and pieces from different stories, comics, books, movies, whatever that you've seen and read, right?

00:12:11.788 --> 00:12:32.228
Joshua: Yeah, so like really the ability of like those AI pulling from other sources, even though it makes it seem like they're really just AI and robots and like that's all they can really do to think, it kind of makes them more human, I feel like.

00:12:32.248 --> 00:12:38.148
Diego: Yeah, I think it does, because ultimately, I mean, our brain is a computer just way slower than theirs, you know?

00:12:38.888 --> 00:12:50.468
Diego: And so like, when you follow that thread, you end up getting to a point where you realize it's like, wait a minute, doesn't that mean necessarily that like their logic, being devoid of emotion, like they don't think emotionally, right?

00:12:51.728 --> 00:13:13.648
Diego: Their logic could ultimately be possibly the most correct logic, like, again, logically speaking, when it comes to, you know, risk and benefit, when it comes to what is the best thing for the big picture, aren't they kind of right in that conclusion, like Skynet and the machines from The Matrix, I like humans.

00:13:13.668 --> 00:13:14.188
Joshua: I mean, yeah.

00:13:15.208 --> 00:13:16.348
Diego: And it's kind of freaky, man.

00:13:16.368 --> 00:13:19.348
Diego: It's kind of freaky.

00:13:19.368 --> 00:13:34.928
Joshua: Something that I feel like is kind of like Skynet, but a little bit different is in Attack on Titan, the main character, like former main character Aaron, he, in the end of the show, kind of spoilers, becomes the villain.

00:13:36.108 --> 00:13:47.088
Joshua: And his whole thing is like the entire, most of the show, he was fighting for like his people's freedom, and because like everyone was oppressing them and stuff.

00:13:47.548 --> 00:14:04.988
Joshua: And then he learns that his people, the Eldians, are like the cause of all the problems in the world, because the Eldians were like oppressing everybody else, and now they are the oppressed.

00:14:05.708 --> 00:14:21.068
Joshua: And so he like kind of realizes that if his people didn't exist anymore, then all of the problems in the world would end.

00:14:21.288 --> 00:14:23.668
Diego: So he turns on his own people.

00:14:24.288 --> 00:14:38.188
Joshua: He kind of does, and then there's this other perspective of what if everybody but my people are eliminated, then there's no problem.

00:14:38.528 --> 00:14:42.348
Joshua: So in either situation, there's like two forces in the show.

00:14:42.368 --> 00:14:57.928
Joshua: And the side that wants every Eldian to be gone is kind of working with Aaron.

00:14:58.608 --> 00:15:02.008
Joshua: But Aaron wants everybody but the Eldians to be gone.

00:15:02.728 --> 00:15:08.928
Joshua: And he kind of makes them think that he's on their side, and then kind of quickly switches it up.

00:15:09.288 --> 00:15:13.528
Joshua: Okay, in the end, he ends up wiping out like 80% of humanity.

00:15:14.628 --> 00:15:15.648
Joshua: What he ends?

00:15:15.668 --> 00:15:18.988
Joshua: Yeah, like 80% most of humanity.

00:15:19.788 --> 00:15:26.808
Joshua: And it was all because in the end, he was trying to do the right thing.

00:15:27.908 --> 00:15:33.588
Joshua: All he wanted was for all the problems in the world at that current time to be ended.

00:15:34.188 --> 00:15:44.328
Joshua: But was he, I don't know, I feel like either solution wasn't really right.

00:15:44.668 --> 00:15:45.028
Diego: Right.

00:15:45.628 --> 00:16:10.528
Diego: But you almost understand, I feel like those villains who come from a point of having been oppressed or being part of a people who have been oppressed, I feel like those villains, it's hard to justify because they a lot of times take almost like a terrorist route with it, or it feels like out of pure vengeance.

00:16:10.908 --> 00:16:13.468
Diego: But think of like a Killmonger, for example.

00:16:13.628 --> 00:16:14.908
Joshua: Yeah, I was going to mention that.

00:16:15.108 --> 00:16:44.088
Diego: Yeah, Killmonger, can you really blame him for wanting to take the throne of the most powerful nation in the world, most advanced nation in the world, and then weaponize all his people so that basically like black people could now become the dominant race on the planet, after centuries upon centuries of the white race being the dominant race on the planet.

00:16:44.108 --> 00:16:47.888
Diego: Like, you know, you kind of understand, right?

00:16:47.968 --> 00:16:49.308
Diego: Yeah.

00:16:49.968 --> 00:17:04.448
Diego: And because of the oppression and the suffering and the slavery and the mass genocide and killings and people being ripped from their home continents and, you know, being sold to servitude elsewhere, like, yeah, you kind of get where he's coming from.

00:17:04.448 --> 00:17:07.708
Diego: Or like, think of somebody like Magneto, for example, right?

00:17:07.868 --> 00:17:15.128
Diego: Where like Magneto, the classic story of Magneto is that he was a Jew in concentration camps.

00:17:15.148 --> 00:17:23.948
Diego: He was a child when he saw all of his people being stripped from their homes, tossed into concentration camps, you know, murdered.

00:17:25.228 --> 00:17:36.548
Diego: And then suddenly he discovers that he is not only part of a minority that's been oppressed in that way, and then, you know, genocide has been attempted against him.

00:17:37.108 --> 00:17:39.868
Diego: But now he discovers that he's a different kind of minority, right?

00:17:39.888 --> 00:17:47.348
Diego: When he discovers his identity as a mutant and his abilities and all this stuff, and he realizes that it's not just him, it's a whole bunch of other people.

00:17:47.748 --> 00:18:00.508
Diego: So it's almost like he sees it as this thing of where like, oh no, like hell no, I'm not going to let this happen now to my new people when it was done already to my birth people.

00:18:02.468 --> 00:18:07.808
Diego: And like, that is a really powerful place that he's coming from, you know?

00:18:08.448 --> 00:18:26.328
Diego: And of course, again, he takes the route of like a terrorist organization, where he's like, I'm going to basically establish my people as the superior species in the planet, the whole whole superior thing, right?

00:18:27.108 --> 00:18:40.328
Diego: So yeah, man, it's kind of tough almost to like, you know, look at him and be like, you know, you're just one more villain, because there's a lot of villains out there that are doing things out of just like pure malice, right?

00:18:40.348 --> 00:18:41.908
Diego: Like they're just evil for whatever reason.

00:18:42.308 --> 00:18:44.728
Diego: Like the Joker is just an agent of chaos, right?

00:18:44.748 --> 00:18:47.628
Diego: Like he's just doing things to do things or whatever.

00:18:48.588 --> 00:18:51.948
Diego: There's a bunch of villains out there who are doing things to get rich, right?

00:18:52.348 --> 00:18:53.848
Diego: Or to become more powerful.

00:18:53.928 --> 00:18:59.748
Diego: But with people like Killmonger, like Magneto, you kind of like look at him and you're like, no, yeah, man, I get it.

00:18:59.768 --> 00:19:04.348
Diego: You're coming from a place of like serious oppression, and you're almost fighting for survival in a way.

00:19:04.948 --> 00:19:08.488
Diego: Because if you don't do anything, I think this is the mentality of Magneto.

00:19:08.508 --> 00:19:15.808
Diego: Like, if I don't do anything, they're going to wipe us out, you know, because people, humans fear that they don't understand.

00:19:16.468 --> 00:19:17.948
Diego: So eventually, they're going to wipe us out.

00:19:17.968 --> 00:19:18.948
Diego: And he's kind of right.

00:19:18.968 --> 00:19:31.408
Diego: Like, look at the Mutant Registration Act and the Sentinels, you know, like all the stuff that Magneto is kind of like saying would happen, really did happen in the pages of the comics and in the movies and stuff.

00:19:31.428 --> 00:19:34.848
Diego: So, you know, is he really totally wrong?

00:19:35.068 --> 00:19:35.568
Diego: Maybe not.

00:19:37.868 --> 00:20:06.548
Joshua: And I feel like, well, something I wanted to mention is a Naruto villain, Pain, his name's Pain, and his goal is basically to unite the world by causing something like devastating to the entire world, which will unite them, because everybody will have felt the same shared pain.

00:20:07.228 --> 00:20:11.568
Joshua: And I feel like, obviously, uniting the world, I mean, that's a good goal.

00:20:12.428 --> 00:20:23.048
Joshua: But honestly, I kind of agree, because I feel like pain is needed for a lot of things.

00:20:24.388 --> 00:20:25.868
Joshua: And I feel like to...

00:20:26.288 --> 00:20:29.328
Diego: You mean like in life, like feeling pain, yeah.

00:20:29.908 --> 00:20:37.988
Joshua: And I feel like in this situation, it's not that crazy.

00:20:38.628 --> 00:20:43.288
Joshua: I feel like in the show, it's like, obviously, he's a villain.

00:20:43.308 --> 00:20:53.128
Joshua: All the main characters are very oppositions, of course.

00:20:53.588 --> 00:20:57.348
Joshua: But I feel like that's not really right.

00:20:57.688 --> 00:21:14.088
Joshua: I feel like if you really start to think about his goal and why he wants to cause the entire world pain, like just thinking about it, if he says it, like I want to cause massive pain to the whole world, it sounds evil.

00:21:14.208 --> 00:21:20.548
Joshua: But if you really think about why he wants to, it's not that bad, really.

00:21:21.408 --> 00:21:32.148
Diego: Yeah, that actually reminds me of, I just watched the movie The First Omen, which is a prequel to the original Omen movie, which came out back in the 70s, right?

00:21:32.468 --> 00:21:52.248
Diego: And so this movie takes place early 70s, and it's revealed that the Catholic Church has this faction within it that has concluded that people are leaving the Catholic Church in mass, and they need to find a way to bring people back.

00:21:52.308 --> 00:21:57.488
Diego: And so the tactic that they decide to use is by causing the birth of the Antichrist.

00:22:01.308 --> 00:22:12.248
Diego: And so they start kidnapping women and forcing them to mate with this demon, the devil, pretty much, and to bring about the birth of the Antichrist, who is supposed to be the child of the devil, right?

00:22:12.868 --> 00:22:22.048
Diego: And so eventually that's what leads to Damian, the character who is the Antichrist in the first Omen movie, or who is meant to become the Antichrist.

00:22:22.528 --> 00:22:24.648
Diego: He's just like an evil child in that movie.

00:22:25.248 --> 00:22:44.008
Diego: So there's that same similar concept, is like, let's try to do something good by doing something really terrible, because if we bring the Antichrist to life, basically that person is going to bring all sorts of evil and misery upon the world, and thus people are going to flock back to the Catholic Church.

00:22:44.368 --> 00:22:46.708
Joshua: Well, I feel like that's kind of different, though.

00:22:47.508 --> 00:22:53.948
Joshua: Because they're kind of just doing it so that they can get people to join the Catholic Church.

00:22:53.968 --> 00:22:55.528
Diego: Yeah, for their own benefit.

00:22:55.528 --> 00:23:04.388
Joshua: But I feel like with pain's ideology or whatever, it's for the good of the world.

00:23:04.488 --> 00:23:05.168
Diego: Yeah, I got you.

00:23:05.188 --> 00:23:05.908
Diego: Yeah, that is different.

00:23:05.928 --> 00:23:07.568
Joshua: I mean, it is obviously a similar concept.

00:23:07.588 --> 00:23:12.648
Diego: And I wouldn't classify these people from The First Omen as one of these villains who had a good point.

00:23:12.668 --> 00:23:15.348
Diego: Not really, but it just reminded me of that.

00:23:15.368 --> 00:23:19.748
Diego: Someone trying to achieve something that they consider is positive by doing something really terrible.

00:23:20.888 --> 00:23:31.048
Diego: You know who else, going back to the whole point of Killmonger and Magneto, who were kind of coming from a place of fear and survival and not wanting for their whole race to be wiped out?

00:23:31.468 --> 00:23:47.708
Diego: I also think of Vegeta when it comes to that in the Dragon Ball world, because you look at Vegeta and you're like, oh my God, this guy, he can never shake off this kind of dark side to him and this whole thing of I'm the Prince of Saiyans, you know, all that stuff.

00:23:48.608 --> 00:23:50.588
Diego: But like, can you blame him, though?

00:23:51.048 --> 00:23:59.988
Joshua: You know, because like his people are kind of like his people are what his people are kind of like gone.

00:24:00.888 --> 00:24:05.368
Joshua: So I feel like it's kind of not that weird that he would want to.

00:24:07.148 --> 00:24:09.688
Joshua: Like, I don't know.

00:24:09.688 --> 00:24:19.268
Joshua: I feel like it's not that weird to think that he would want to like acknowledge his birthright.

00:24:19.728 --> 00:24:20.428
Diego: Right, right.

00:24:20.448 --> 00:24:20.968
Diego: Exactly.

00:24:21.408 --> 00:24:34.268
Diego: No, and not only that, but like you would imagine that he would probably be holding on to the dream of being able to like eventually kind of like bring back the same race, you know, somehow.

00:24:34.948 --> 00:24:35.848
Diego: It really sucks.

00:24:36.228 --> 00:24:46.608
Diego: Like, not only were they wiped out, but before they were wiped out, they were basically like enslaved by Frieza to go and conquer planets for him, you know?

00:24:47.428 --> 00:25:00.168
Diego: So it's like, yeah, you can kind of understand why this guy holds on to his Saiyan pride and why he refuses to stop calling himself the Prince of all Saiyans and why he kind of like has the attitude that he has.

00:25:00.188 --> 00:25:01.548
Diego: You know, he has a chip on his shoulder.

00:25:01.568 --> 00:25:04.048
Diego: He feels like the world owes him something.

00:25:04.488 --> 00:25:04.828
Joshua: Yeah.

00:25:04.848 --> 00:25:05.968
Diego: And it kind of does, you know?

00:25:07.768 --> 00:25:11.828
Diego: It's difficult to argue with those kinds of situations, for sure.

00:25:13.108 --> 00:25:40.708
Joshua: Something I want to mention is if, like I'm just talking like generally to like about most people here, if you were to, for the rest of your life, live in your ideal world, like just your ideal world, your ideal life, everything would be how you want it to be.

00:25:41.908 --> 00:25:52.648
Joshua: But you knew that it was, it seemed exactly real, but you know that it's not.

00:25:53.768 --> 00:25:55.008
Diego: Like the matrix, I think?

00:25:55.448 --> 00:26:07.268
Joshua: Yeah, but like if you could for the rest of your life live in your ideal world, but you knew that it was fake, would you?

00:26:08.228 --> 00:26:09.328
Diego: Me personally, no.

00:26:10.428 --> 00:26:15.508
Diego: I prefer to live within reality, even if it's not my ideal situation.

00:26:17.088 --> 00:26:35.848
Joshua: Because in, this is another Naruto movie, in Naruto, Madara, his whole, his like his end, like his big thing that he does, is he casts what's called an infinite Sukiyomi across the whole world.

00:26:36.788 --> 00:26:46.068
Joshua: And it basically, like, sets everybody into their own unique, ideal universe.

00:26:47.328 --> 00:26:50.608
Joshua: Like everything would be how they would want it to be.

00:26:50.628 --> 00:26:54.068
Joshua: And like, it would be different for everybody.

00:26:54.088 --> 00:26:55.688
Diego: And what's happening with them in the real world?

00:26:56.368 --> 00:27:03.568
Joshua: In the real world, it's kind of interesting because for the rest of their life, they would live out however they wanted to.

00:27:03.968 --> 00:27:04.328
Diego: Okay.

00:27:04.348 --> 00:27:05.568
Joshua: Like in that world.

00:27:06.148 --> 00:27:10.508
Joshua: But in the real world, they're kind of being, like, harvested.

00:27:11.148 --> 00:27:12.028
Diego: Oh, like the Matrix?

00:27:12.208 --> 00:27:12.588
Joshua: Yeah.

00:27:13.128 --> 00:27:14.948
Joshua: It's a very similar situation to the Matrix.

00:27:15.088 --> 00:27:15.728
Diego: Okay, okay.

00:27:16.188 --> 00:27:26.668
Joshua: And I don't know, I feel like if I knew that at least for the rest of my life, I would live ideally.

00:27:28.848 --> 00:27:29.448
Joshua: I'm not sure.

00:27:29.468 --> 00:27:30.348
Joshua: I feel like it's not...

00:27:30.568 --> 00:27:31.348
Diego: You would like that?

00:27:31.868 --> 00:27:35.548
Diego: That you would be willing to surrender, like, reality or whatever?

00:27:36.048 --> 00:27:41.788
Joshua: I just don't know if it's something that I would, like, easily say no to.

00:27:42.128 --> 00:27:42.928
Diego: Yeah, that's fair.

00:27:43.608 --> 00:27:44.148
Diego: That's fair.

00:27:44.708 --> 00:27:46.188
Joshua: And I feel like he definitely...

00:27:47.068 --> 00:27:53.968
Joshua: He's kind of doing good in the sense that everybody gets to live ideally.

00:27:53.968 --> 00:27:56.628
Joshua: It's just not real, and they're being harvested.

00:27:56.908 --> 00:27:57.248
Diego: Right.

00:27:57.948 --> 00:27:59.068
Diego: Yeah, right, right.

00:27:59.088 --> 00:28:01.708
Diego: It's the exact same issue with The Matrix, right?

00:28:01.928 --> 00:28:12.188
Diego: But yeah, even within the world of The Matrix, there were people who, given the chance to come out into the real world, preferred to go back into The Matrix.

00:28:12.208 --> 00:28:13.728
Diego: They would prefer to be plugged in again.

00:28:14.088 --> 00:28:14.468
Joshua: Yeah.

00:28:14.948 --> 00:28:18.668
Diego: Because not everybody deals with reality the same way, right?

00:28:18.688 --> 00:28:21.808
Diego: So a lot of people would prefer to live in La La Land.

00:28:22.828 --> 00:28:23.948
Diego: Yeah, that's a tough one.

00:28:24.028 --> 00:28:26.248
Diego: That's a tough one.

00:28:26.268 --> 00:28:28.348
Diego: But I think that'll be different for everybody.

00:28:28.368 --> 00:28:37.668
Diego: But yeah, it's almost like if the villain in that case, like the machines in The Matrix and this guy that you're talking about, they are offering a pretty humane alternative.

00:28:37.688 --> 00:28:39.628
Diego: They're not saying, I'm going to kill you, right?

00:28:40.588 --> 00:28:47.528
Diego: They're saying, I'm going to let you live in bliss in exchange for me getting what I need and what I want.

00:28:47.768 --> 00:28:48.148
Joshua: Yeah.

00:28:49.088 --> 00:28:52.528
Diego: And, you know, I don't know.

00:28:52.708 --> 00:28:53.928
Diego: Is it terrible?

00:28:54.848 --> 00:29:05.608
Diego: You know, it reminds me also of like of God Doom, God of Doom in Secret Wars, where like, you know, he...

00:29:06.428 --> 00:29:19.148
Diego: Doom is all about control, like him as a villain, he considers that the world should be ruled properly to have control, to have peace.

00:29:19.508 --> 00:29:24.128
Diego: You know, like the Templars in the Assassin's Creed world, where they're all about like, controlling...

00:29:24.548 --> 00:29:25.988
Diego: Yeah, order through control, right?

00:29:27.568 --> 00:29:33.468
Diego: But of course, he considers being the eagle maniacal guy he is, he considers he's the one that should be leading, like no one else.

00:29:34.308 --> 00:29:37.748
Diego: So, he got that in Battleworld, you know?

00:29:37.848 --> 00:29:40.348
Diego: He got to be like God, basically.

00:29:41.308 --> 00:29:44.908
Diego: And, you know, people didn't seem to have terrible lives there either.

00:29:46.148 --> 00:29:52.508
Diego: But it's all just like this whole thing of the curiosity of am I, what am I missing out on here?

00:29:52.688 --> 00:29:56.768
Diego: What is the real world without this person or this entity in charge?

00:29:58.128 --> 00:30:13.408
Diego: So, yeah, I think even the most benevolent villains, or not benevolent villains, but the villains who have the most humane ways of achieving their goals still, they're never going to get everybody to agree, you know?

00:30:13.848 --> 00:30:16.168
Diego: It's kind of impossible.

00:30:17.688 --> 00:30:27.088
Diego: What about people, what about villains who are all about feeling threatened by...

00:30:29.448 --> 00:30:35.408
Diego: Like, they feel like they are the solution or the thing that is holding back something worse.

00:30:37.188 --> 00:30:40.028
Joshua: Maybe Light from Death Note?

00:30:42.708 --> 00:30:44.088
Diego: Is that what's going on with him?

00:30:45.008 --> 00:30:48.848
Joshua: I mean, he is basically like...

00:30:49.988 --> 00:30:50.608
Joshua: He is...

00:30:51.528 --> 00:30:59.428
Joshua: With the Death Note, he's trying to, at least throughout the series, eliminate every single criminal.

00:31:01.188 --> 00:31:02.228
Joshua: Like, in the world.

00:31:02.248 --> 00:31:04.388
Diego: And what is it that happens if he doesn't write a name?

00:31:04.408 --> 00:31:06.568
Diego: I forgot.

00:31:08.028 --> 00:31:10.728
Joshua: Well, I mean, they don't die.

00:31:10.748 --> 00:31:13.228
Joshua: I don't get what you mean.

00:31:13.248 --> 00:31:14.908
Diego: But doesn't he have to write a name?

00:31:15.168 --> 00:31:16.848
Diego: Like, doesn't he have to pick someone?

00:31:17.528 --> 00:31:18.868
Diego: Or else, or something else happens?

00:31:18.888 --> 00:31:19.708
Diego: I forget that part.

00:31:20.608 --> 00:31:21.428
Joshua: I don't think so.

00:31:22.568 --> 00:31:25.928
Joshua: But, I mean, his goal is just to...

00:31:26.528 --> 00:31:31.248
Joshua: Because he finds his Death Note, like, obviously, the whole beginning is he just...

00:31:31.668 --> 00:31:34.688
Joshua: He sees this note look like fall from the heavens, basically.

00:31:35.068 --> 00:31:35.388
Diego: Right.

00:31:35.408 --> 00:31:37.268
Joshua: Or hell, but it's, like, up.

00:31:37.788 --> 00:31:42.928
Joshua: And he sees this notebook just fall from the sky, and then he finds out he writes...

00:31:43.048 --> 00:31:49.808
Joshua: He sees something bad happening, and then he writes down the person's name, and then they die.

00:31:49.828 --> 00:31:58.568
Joshua: And he, like, writes down the specific type of death, and then they die in that way, and then he realizes this could be used for good.

00:31:59.548 --> 00:32:10.488
Joshua: But then, like, he starts off using it for good, because he's, like, eliminating crime, but he's, like, just killing them directly.

00:32:11.448 --> 00:32:22.108
Joshua: And then there's the thing of if people are starting to catch on, is he, like, he's gonna kill them, but that's not humane, is it?

00:32:22.508 --> 00:32:36.228
Joshua: Because, like, trying to keep the whole thing of killing criminals, like, obviously, people are gonna kind of start to catch on, and then if you want to silence them, you have to kill them, but that's not humane.

00:32:36.468 --> 00:32:44.968
Diego: Yeah, it's a tricky thing, like, the villain who puts himself in the place of, like, judge, jury, and executioner.

00:32:45.708 --> 00:32:50.288
Diego: I don't think you're ever gonna get, like, the masses being okay with that.

00:32:50.388 --> 00:32:57.168
Diego: You're always gonna get people, like, like, who are you to be the one to decide, you know, who gets to live and die sort of thing?

00:32:57.188 --> 00:32:58.208
Joshua: Like, he really is...

00:32:59.608 --> 00:33:02.788
Joshua: I feel like he is, like, an example of that.

00:33:02.788 --> 00:33:10.748
Joshua: Like, he's holding back the, just the mass, like, the entirety of just crime across the world.

00:33:11.148 --> 00:33:19.048
Joshua: But in doing so, he's not any better than any of the criminals that he's holding back.

00:33:19.068 --> 00:33:25.408
Diego: Well, that reminds me of the League of Assassins or the League of Shadows, depending on which version of it you're looking at, right?

00:33:25.428 --> 00:33:32.188
Diego: Like, in the Batman world or in the DC world, that is the league that is led by Ra's Al Ghul.

00:33:33.108 --> 00:33:39.508
Diego: And their whole thing is also similar to the Templars in Assassin's Creed.

00:33:40.228 --> 00:33:44.868
Diego: It's like control through killing, I guess.

00:33:45.308 --> 00:33:45.948
Diego: You know, through...

00:33:45.968 --> 00:33:47.348
Diego: Not necessarily through killing.

00:33:47.488 --> 00:33:48.288
Diego: It's control.

00:33:48.308 --> 00:33:59.448
Diego: They're controlling the events of things, or the direction that society moves or that a city moves or that a country moves in by creating certain events in the shadows, causing things to happen.

00:33:59.968 --> 00:34:10.868
Diego: So in the Nolan trilogy, he talked about who released the rats, the plague, the day did that, who burned Rome.

00:34:11.328 --> 00:34:31.228
Diego: They started taking responsibility for a whole bunch of important events, and they're basically talking about that they are kind of like a purging fire, that when an ecosystem starts running too wild and out of control and where crime runs rampant and drugs and violence and all this stuff, that's when they come in and they purify.

00:34:32.488 --> 00:34:38.568
Diego: And that is like a pretty, almost like a righteous mission.

00:34:39.528 --> 00:34:43.908
Diego: But again, they're taking it upon themselves to be judge, jury, executioner.

00:34:44.028 --> 00:34:45.148
Joshua: Yeah, which I mean...

00:34:45.388 --> 00:34:46.568
Diego: Nobody appointed them that.

00:34:47.828 --> 00:34:48.548
Diego: So that's like...

00:34:49.128 --> 00:35:00.908
Joshua: And the decisions that they make, even if it is like overall helping, the individual little decision that they make are like kind of evil.

00:35:01.168 --> 00:35:01.548
Diego: Yeah.

00:35:02.088 --> 00:35:07.068
Diego: Then also like He Who Remains from the Loki series.

00:35:07.628 --> 00:35:14.088
Diego: Particularly from the Loki series, so I don't think He Who Remains had like the same kind of mission or purpose in the comics.

00:35:14.628 --> 00:35:18.348
Diego: But in the Loki series, He Who Remains was basically like...

00:35:18.448 --> 00:35:28.168
Diego: He saw himself in everything he was doing in the creation of the TVA as like the thing that was holding back a greater evil.

00:35:28.508 --> 00:35:28.948
Joshua: Yeah.

00:35:28.968 --> 00:35:29.548
Diego: Right?

00:35:29.808 --> 00:35:35.068
Diego: When he told Loki and Sylvie, you think I'm bad, wait till you meet my variants.

00:35:35.248 --> 00:35:43.368
Diego: He saw himself as the guy who was actually keeping something much, much worse from happening or from coming to pass.

00:35:44.428 --> 00:35:47.448
Diego: I don't know, what do you think of that character?

00:35:47.468 --> 00:35:51.668
Diego: Because I ended up being kind of conflicted, even all the way through the end of it.

00:35:51.688 --> 00:36:02.768
Diego: Look, Loki, spoiler alert for the Loki show, if you haven't seen season two, in the end, someone has to take his place to keep doing what he was doing.

00:36:03.528 --> 00:36:04.068
Diego: Right?

00:36:04.088 --> 00:36:11.168
Diego: That's essentially what Loki ended up doing, by sitting on that throne and grabbing all the branches and all that stuff of the timelines.

00:36:13.108 --> 00:36:16.608
Diego: You basically couldn't do without that person.

00:36:17.608 --> 00:36:21.748
Diego: It just went on from being he who remains to being now Loki, god of stories or whatever.

00:36:21.928 --> 00:36:38.808
Joshua: And I feel like there is kind of a difference because it's clearly shown in Loki that it could have been done in a very different way as it was shown with Loki.

00:36:39.748 --> 00:36:43.768
Joshua: Like, you don't have to purge all these timelines.

00:36:43.788 --> 00:36:46.688
Joshua: You don't have to do all this because Loki showed us.

00:36:47.508 --> 00:36:50.448
Joshua: You can kind of just not...

00:36:50.768 --> 00:36:51.348
Joshua: I mean, I guess...

00:36:51.368 --> 00:37:04.688
Diego: Well, but Loki still has to keep control of things, though, which means that if there's a multiversal level threat coming out of any of the branch timelines, like, wouldn't he prune that?

00:37:05.108 --> 00:37:05.528
Diego: I don't know.

00:37:06.468 --> 00:37:08.928
Diego: Like, he's the one now with the burden.

00:37:08.948 --> 00:37:17.168
Joshua: Well, I mean, I wouldn't think so because, I mean, that was a very big thing.

00:37:17.188 --> 00:37:21.108
Joshua: That's kind of like what Sylvie's whole point was.

00:37:22.928 --> 00:37:23.608
Diego: Right, right.

00:37:24.608 --> 00:37:26.908
Joshua: I wouldn't think that he would just go back to...

00:37:27.648 --> 00:37:29.548
Diego: I guess that's bound to get out of control, though.

00:37:29.848 --> 00:37:30.328
Joshua: Yeah.

00:37:30.448 --> 00:37:34.068
Diego: Like, someone's gonna find a way within the multiverse to break...

00:37:34.088 --> 00:37:36.108
Diego: Obviously, we're gonna end the Fourth Secret Wars, but...

00:37:36.228 --> 00:37:36.528
Joshua: Yeah.

00:37:36.548 --> 00:37:36.928
Diego: You know.

00:37:40.428 --> 00:37:45.008
Diego: So, again, that makes me think, like, right back to the whole point of he who remains, like, how wrong was he?

00:37:45.968 --> 00:37:46.388
Diego: You know?

00:37:46.588 --> 00:37:48.248
Diego: His measures were very extreme.

00:37:48.388 --> 00:37:50.008
Joshua: I don't think he was wrong.

00:37:50.028 --> 00:37:57.488
Joshua: I just think that there is different ways to do it.

00:37:59.348 --> 00:38:00.388
Diego: I guess.

00:38:00.568 --> 00:38:10.608
Diego: I mean, there is until there isn't, because, again, we're headed to Secret Wars, and that's an example right there that even Loki's solution isn't going to be the solution to it all.

00:38:10.628 --> 00:38:34.368
Joshua: I mean, isn't, at least in the comics, like, in the comics, was it that, I mean, I know I just read the comic, but in the comics, was it that there was an incursion already happening and Doom, like, kind of saved everyone by creating Battle World?

00:38:35.348 --> 00:38:35.568
Joshua: Oh.

00:38:35.808 --> 00:38:44.328
Diego: Yeah, because the last incursion was going to happen between the 616 and the 1610 or whatever, and that was going to mean the end of both universes.

00:38:44.508 --> 00:38:52.248
Diego: So what Doom did was basically, like, save parts of both by doing what he did.

00:38:53.528 --> 00:38:55.308
Diego: So I don't know.

00:38:55.448 --> 00:38:57.128
Diego: Still, it was a lot of loss, a lot of death.

00:38:57.388 --> 00:38:57.628
Joshua: Mm-hmm.

00:38:57.768 --> 00:39:00.248
Joshua: So maybe there is...

00:39:00.868 --> 00:39:05.248
Joshua: Maybe, I mean, there just isn't and won't be...

00:39:05.268 --> 00:39:06.598
Diego: A solution for it...

00:39:06.598 --> 00:39:06.598
Joshua: .

00:39:06.598 --> 00:39:09.028
Joshua: a, like, permanent solution to the problem.

00:39:09.228 --> 00:39:14.148
Diego: It could be a thing where you got to keep on, like, reinventing solutions as the threats arise, I guess.

00:39:14.268 --> 00:39:14.608
Joshua: Yeah.

00:39:14.968 --> 00:39:18.748
Joshua: I really don't think that there's a permanent solution to the problem of the multiverse.

00:39:18.888 --> 00:39:19.888
Diego: Yeah, probably not.

00:39:20.688 --> 00:39:25.088
Diego: What do you think about people who are doing things out of, like, fear?

00:39:25.108 --> 00:39:30.228
Diego: Like, I think of Lex Luthor, for example, who's, like, you know, Superman is, like, the most classic villain.

00:39:30.468 --> 00:39:30.748
Joshua: Mm-hmm.

00:39:31.088 --> 00:39:45.008
Diego: But especially in, like, stories in the latter years, like, you see that what he's doing is out of fear because there is, like, basically a god now amongst them, right?

00:39:45.028 --> 00:39:45.488
Joshua: Mm-hmm.

00:39:45.928 --> 00:39:50.308
Diego: And, like, he's, like, you know, who's gonna keep him in check?

00:39:50.968 --> 00:39:57.688
Diego: If he ever decides to change his mind about being our protector and decides to be our ruler, like, who's gonna stand up to him?

00:39:58.108 --> 00:39:58.368
Joshua: Yeah.

00:39:58.388 --> 00:39:58.628
Diego: Right?

00:39:59.108 --> 00:40:09.908
Diego: So, like, if I don't do something about it, no one else is doing anything about it, like, I'm gonna be the one who figures out what makes him weak, how can we neutralize him, how can we control him?

00:40:09.928 --> 00:40:22.508
Diego: And it was Amanda Waller's whole thing, too, with Task Force X, you know, her whole thing of, like, you know, Superman, we got lucky, basically, with Superman, because he just happened to be a good guy, you know?

00:40:22.888 --> 00:40:23.248
Joshua: Yeah.

00:40:23.268 --> 00:40:25.328
Diego: But what happens when the next Superman comes around?

00:40:25.348 --> 00:40:27.808
Diego: Like, how are we gonna be able to neutralize that, you know?

00:40:28.328 --> 00:40:40.908
Diego: So, what about those people, you know, who are, like, it's almost like they have this agenda, and granted, Lex Luthor is a very, you know, maniacal, kind of egotistical dude, right?

00:40:41.128 --> 00:40:41.448
Joshua: Yeah.

00:40:42.868 --> 00:40:44.548
Diego: But he makes a good point, though.

00:40:44.648 --> 00:40:48.668
Diego: Like, Superman is a really problematic character, you know?

00:40:49.228 --> 00:40:52.248
Diego: And, like, Wonder Woman is a very problematic character.

00:40:52.268 --> 00:41:02.688
Diego: These people are basically immortals who, at any moment, as the injustice storylines show us, at any moment could ever rule the planet.

00:41:03.008 --> 00:41:03.388
Joshua: Yeah.

00:41:03.408 --> 00:41:03.728
Diego: Right?

00:41:04.648 --> 00:41:06.348
Diego: So, I don't know.

00:41:06.468 --> 00:41:15.968
Diego: Is it that bad that somebody, even if they're pretty twisted, can, granted, Luther has done some pretty bad stuff, but not bad enough that he couldn't get elected as president.

00:41:17.248 --> 00:41:17.928
Joshua: I guess.

00:41:18.248 --> 00:41:20.068
Diego: He was president for a while in the comics.

00:41:20.928 --> 00:41:33.028
Diego: So, clearly, and, like, you got people like the kingpin who got elected as mayor of, oh, but granted, I think that was after, like, the memory of his crimes were wiped out or something.

00:41:33.688 --> 00:41:34.248
Diego: Anyway, but yeah.

00:41:34.568 --> 00:41:35.008
Diego: Lex Luther.

00:41:35.448 --> 00:41:40.648
Diego: I'm afraid of this being who has come to our planet could literally wipe us all out.

00:41:40.668 --> 00:41:42.548
Diego: Like, why aren't we doing something about this?

00:41:43.568 --> 00:41:44.348
Joshua: I honestly think...

00:41:44.368 --> 00:41:45.808
Diego: That's kind of a valid point...

00:41:45.808 --> 00:41:45.808
Joshua: .

00:41:45.808 --> 00:41:50.408
Joshua: that, like, putting aside him as a person...

00:41:51.088 --> 00:42:01.028
Joshua: I feel like him as a person is kind of the cause of why people view him as a villain a lot.

00:42:01.568 --> 00:42:07.328
Joshua: But also, I feel like he kind of seeks out Superman.

00:42:07.348 --> 00:42:14.528
Joshua: I feel like he doesn't wait until the moment where he does kind of snap.

00:42:15.068 --> 00:42:16.248
Joshua: He kind of is...

00:42:16.948 --> 00:42:18.628
Diego: He's doing it preemptively.

00:42:18.648 --> 00:42:19.028
Joshua: Yeah.

00:42:19.168 --> 00:42:20.248
Joshua: And I feel like that's...

00:42:20.488 --> 00:42:27.748
Joshua: If he wasn't doing that, I honestly think there's literally nothing to classify him as a villain.

00:42:27.908 --> 00:42:28.468
Diego: That's true.

00:42:28.868 --> 00:42:34.508
Diego: When you think of, for example, Tony Stark, Tony Stark built the Hulkbuster just in case, right?

00:42:34.708 --> 00:42:35.088
Joshua: Yeah.

00:42:35.168 --> 00:42:43.528
Diego: And that's something meant to neutralize one of the most powerful beings in the world who's currently a superhero but at any point could turn into a villain.

00:42:44.388 --> 00:42:54.068
Diego: So he didn't get negative feedback for that, but he did get negative feedback for Ultron, the Ultron Initiative.

00:42:56.768 --> 00:43:04.048
Diego: But then again, here comes Ultron, another villain who kind of has the same motivation as Skynet.

00:43:04.568 --> 00:43:12.608
Diego: He was built to secure peace in the world, and he realized that humanity is the number one source of lack of peace in the world.

00:43:13.328 --> 00:43:18.188
Diego: Every other species knows how to live in harmony within their ecosystem and play their role except humanity.

00:43:18.288 --> 00:43:19.788
Diego: We're just here like a virus.

00:43:21.648 --> 00:43:27.408
Diego: And thus, he wants to strike the world with a meteor, basically, and wipe everything clean.

00:43:28.488 --> 00:43:29.108
Diego: Is he wrong?

00:43:29.348 --> 00:43:29.888
Diego: I don't know.

00:43:30.568 --> 00:43:51.668
Joshua: Something else that I find interesting is in the case of brainwashing, and I'm specifically talking about the Winter Soldier, kind of, if someone's being brainwashed to do something, and say killing your parents, or killing somebody that is close to you.

00:43:52.668 --> 00:43:56.728
Joshua: And they did it, but they weren't in control of themselves.

00:43:57.088 --> 00:43:57.448
Diego: Right.

00:43:58.808 --> 00:43:59.568
Joshua: It's kind of...

00:44:00.608 --> 00:44:02.668
Joshua: I understand where Tony's obviously...

00:44:02.948 --> 00:44:10.188
Joshua: I understand why he's mad, because he's like, you killed my parents, but it wasn't his fault, really.

00:44:12.188 --> 00:44:13.888
Joshua: I feel like situations where...

00:44:14.848 --> 00:44:22.288
Joshua: There is multiple situations where brainwashing has happened, but I don't know if...

00:44:23.228 --> 00:44:24.728
Joshua: I am kind of conflicted on that.

00:44:25.948 --> 00:44:33.468
Diego: It's kind of tough, but crimes were committed, and somebody should pay for those crimes, wouldn't you agree?

00:44:34.968 --> 00:44:45.228
Diego: So wouldn't it be the closest thing to a responsible person, for those crimes, wouldn't it be the person whose body actually committed the crimes?

00:44:45.628 --> 00:44:59.488
Diego: Even if there isn't a mind attached in control at that moment to committing the crimes, it seems like the closest thing that you could possibly have to a responsible person for the crime.

00:44:59.488 --> 00:45:03.128
Joshua: I mean, yeah, but then again, in that same...

00:45:03.148 --> 00:45:07.228
Joshua: like that person, they like...

00:45:07.268 --> 00:45:09.848
Joshua: because we are our brain, right?

00:45:10.188 --> 00:45:13.468
Joshua: Like that person is innocent.

00:45:14.708 --> 00:45:15.668
Diego: Yeah, it's a good point.

00:45:15.708 --> 00:45:16.488
Diego: That's a tough one.

00:45:17.268 --> 00:45:18.068
Diego: That's a tough one.

00:45:18.448 --> 00:45:20.148
Diego: Okay, let me put it to you like this.

00:45:20.208 --> 00:45:35.268
Diego: If you were brainwashed and committed crimes, and you have no recollection and you have no mental control over it, and now you're free of the brainwashing, and now they come and they tell you you murdered 12 people while brainwashed, what would you do?

00:45:35.588 --> 00:45:37.428
Diego: Like you morally, what would you do?

00:45:38.828 --> 00:45:44.128
Diego: Would you just be like, y'all, I'm sorry, but it wasn't me, technically.

00:45:45.208 --> 00:45:45.908
Diego: What would you do?

00:45:46.148 --> 00:46:04.668
Joshua: I mean, if it's the situation where I was being brainwashed by people, I would at least try to have those people found out.

00:46:05.148 --> 00:46:05.448
Joshua: Right.

00:46:05.468 --> 00:46:15.348
Joshua: But if it was just like maybe something like Moon Knight, which is kind of different, but he kind of blacks out.

00:46:16.108 --> 00:46:23.408
Joshua: And then when that consciousness wakes back up, he's like, a bunch of stuff has happened.

00:46:23.428 --> 00:46:23.908
Diego: Yeah, right.

00:46:23.928 --> 00:46:24.308
Diego: He's lost.

00:46:24.328 --> 00:46:26.428
Diego: He doesn't know what happened.

00:46:26.788 --> 00:46:27.728
Joshua: I feel like...

00:46:28.008 --> 00:46:29.608
Diego: Would you turn yourself in?

00:46:29.628 --> 00:46:31.088
Diego: Would you be willing to serve time?

00:46:31.108 --> 00:46:35.508
Diego: Would you try to make amends or pay for it in some way?

00:46:35.528 --> 00:46:38.828
Diego: Or would you actually try to be like, no, it's someone else's fault, not mine?

00:46:41.328 --> 00:46:42.728
Joshua: I mean, I'm so conflicted.

00:46:42.748 --> 00:46:43.488
Diego: Oh, this guy.

00:46:43.928 --> 00:46:46.668
Diego: Okay, so he's just rising in pain for the crimes.

00:46:46.768 --> 00:46:47.208
Diego: Clearly.

00:46:47.248 --> 00:46:48.568
Diego: I would turn myself in, I think.

00:46:49.228 --> 00:46:50.388
Diego: I'd be willing to serve time.

00:46:50.448 --> 00:46:55.848
Diego: Because I would think of the victims too much, like the families and all the people that were hurt in the process.

00:46:55.868 --> 00:47:01.268
Diego: It's like, you know, I wasn't in my mental capacity, but it just locked me up for a while, you know.

00:47:01.948 --> 00:47:07.288
Diego: Maybe while I'm locked in, while I'm locked behind bars, like I can try to do some good.

00:47:07.988 --> 00:47:21.508
Diego: And maybe through like whatever initiatives I put forth, maybe I'll try to collaborate, be an informant on the people who were brainwashing me, and I try to do stuff to restitute for what was done.

00:47:22.388 --> 00:47:24.108
Diego: Maybe that'll grant me freedom, right?

00:47:24.128 --> 00:47:31.788
Diego: Because they're like, okay, he wasn't in mental control of himself, and he's proving that he's like actually a good person now, that he's not brainwashed.

00:47:32.708 --> 00:47:36.488
Diego: I would probably take like a similar approach to that, but clearly you would just go on the run and like try to...

00:47:36.848 --> 00:47:38.888
Joshua: I said I was conflicted.

00:47:38.988 --> 00:47:41.608
Diego: Joshua would run to Wakanda, that's where he would go.

00:47:41.628 --> 00:47:43.608
Diego: Wakanda and become the brown wolf.

00:47:46.628 --> 00:47:47.748
Diego: Become the brown wolf, bro.

00:47:49.968 --> 00:47:52.408
Diego: You're brown, you're like a caramel color, caramel wolf.

00:47:52.428 --> 00:47:52.928
Diego: How about that?

00:47:54.168 --> 00:47:55.088
Diego: Caramel wolf.

00:47:55.488 --> 00:47:56.308
Joshua: Caramel.

00:47:58.068 --> 00:48:01.208
Diego: Hey, there's another category that I find pretty intriguing.

00:48:02.128 --> 00:48:26.388
Diego: And I go back to the Kingpin, but the Kingpin specifically in the Netflix show, the Daredevil show, one thing that I really loved about that is that when he started like having one-on-one fights with Daredevil, he was trying to like explain to him that they were actually trying to achieve the same thing, which is save the city.

00:48:26.748 --> 00:48:27.128
Joshua: Yeah.

00:48:27.328 --> 00:48:31.108
Diego: And that sounds like a whole bunch of, as you would say, yapping by a villain.

00:48:31.128 --> 00:48:32.608
Joshua: I would not say yapping.

00:48:32.628 --> 00:48:34.188
Diego: But you would totally say yapping.

00:48:34.208 --> 00:48:36.508
Diego: You say yapping more than you say the word and.

00:48:36.528 --> 00:48:43.608
Joshua: Okay, well, to be honest, like I feel like the, you know, you and I aren't so different.

00:48:43.688 --> 00:48:46.708
Joshua: I feel like that speech is like kind of really played out in villains.

00:48:47.188 --> 00:48:48.588
Joshua: Yeah, because like Joker.

00:48:49.328 --> 00:48:50.828
Joshua: Oh, Joker.

00:48:50.848 --> 00:48:53.328
Joshua: Joker glazes that speech.

00:48:53.328 --> 00:48:53.868
Diego: Yes, he does.

00:48:53.888 --> 00:48:54.268
Diego: You're right.

00:48:55.508 --> 00:48:56.128
Diego: Yeah, he does.

00:48:56.688 --> 00:48:58.648
Diego: No, no, but this is, I think, a little bit more than that.

00:48:58.668 --> 00:49:01.148
Diego: So here's here's here's the point that he was making.

00:49:01.148 --> 00:49:04.328
Diego: And at first Daredevil had the same reaction that you're having to it.

00:49:04.348 --> 00:49:05.948
Diego: It's like, you know, I'm nothing like you.

00:49:05.968 --> 00:49:06.288
Diego: Shut up.

00:49:06.308 --> 00:49:06.608
Diego: Whatever.

00:49:06.628 --> 00:49:07.848
Diego: Yeah.

00:49:08.508 --> 00:49:25.708
Diego: But but yeah, Daredevil was like, you yapping, bro, but he went on to explain that this city, I mean, Hell's Kitchen in New York has a system of crime in place.

00:49:27.388 --> 00:49:39.168
Diego: And that depending on the people who are running that system of crime, more crime will happen, more people will die, or less people will die.

00:49:40.028 --> 00:49:49.868
Diego: And he was trying to make the point to him that like, when I took power, I consolidated all the power on me and became the kingpin of crime.

00:49:50.648 --> 00:49:55.528
Diego: And in doing so, I'm able to control the quality of the crime in the city.

00:49:56.608 --> 00:50:00.728
Diego: And that's interesting to me, because it's true.

00:50:00.748 --> 00:50:12.068
Diego: Like, depending on the person that you got in charge of the crime organizations or the people, because at that point there were like several families or whatever, you know, you could have some more ruthless than others.

00:50:13.208 --> 00:50:17.308
Diego: But the kingpin had like a higher class when it comes to crime, right?

00:50:17.328 --> 00:50:22.288
Diego: Like you've seen him, like, you know, he's all fancy and stuff with his suits and his stuff, you know?

00:50:23.268 --> 00:50:31.268
Diego: Like he's more like, he's like a criminal slash businessman, more of that mobster mentality, you know, like Italian mafia type thing.

00:50:32.768 --> 00:50:42.308
Diego: And so like he was trying to tell him, like, let me do my job within the criminal underworld, and you do your job with the everyday criminals.

00:50:42.908 --> 00:50:44.948
Diego: And we're both going to help this city.

00:50:45.808 --> 00:50:47.868
Diego: And I kind of see a point to that.

00:50:49.768 --> 00:50:53.168
Diego: This guy, because like crime is always going to be a thing.

00:50:53.768 --> 00:50:54.148
Joshua: Yeah.

00:50:54.288 --> 00:50:56.888
Diego: You know, like, it's just going to be a thing.

00:50:57.068 --> 00:51:08.448
Diego: So if you could have a criminal, Kingpin, who would do things a bit more organized and humanely, I don't know, is that terrible?

00:51:08.468 --> 00:51:10.708
Diego: Am I going to get hit up by the CIA right now?

00:51:10.788 --> 00:51:14.868
Joshua: I mean, but like, why is he committing the crime in the first place?

00:51:16.648 --> 00:51:17.868
Diego: Because someone's going to do it.

00:51:23.588 --> 00:51:23.808
Joshua: Yeah.

00:51:23.828 --> 00:51:26.348
Joshua: And like, you might as well do it while you're looking cool.

00:51:26.608 --> 00:51:31.888
Diego: Look, man, don't take the high road right now, because you were about to run away to Wakanda after you got unbrainwashed.

00:51:32.628 --> 00:51:35.648
Diego: So like, don't pretend like you're more moral than me now.

00:51:36.128 --> 00:51:39.968
Diego: There's another group in the Batman world that does this.

00:51:39.988 --> 00:51:40.968
Diego: This is the Court of Owls.

00:51:41.908 --> 00:51:44.408
Diego: Like, the Court of Owls is basically like Illuminati, right?

00:51:44.428 --> 00:51:54.788
Diego: Like, what the Illuminati are supposed to be, which is like this secret group of people who are very powerful, and they're basically like pulling the strings of the city or the country or the world or whatever.

00:51:55.028 --> 00:51:55.368
Joshua: Yeah.

00:51:55.908 --> 00:52:09.548
Diego: And like, they lived for years with Batman in place, like for like 10 years or something like that, with Batman operating in Gotham City, and Batman didn't even know about them.

00:52:10.428 --> 00:52:12.628
Joshua: And like, they didn't really cause a problem.

00:52:12.748 --> 00:52:14.288
Diego: No, they didn't cause a problem.

00:52:14.288 --> 00:52:21.348
Diego: And they knew that Batman has like a role to play in Gotham City, and they were totally fine letting him do his thing.

00:52:22.108 --> 00:52:34.028
Diego: And then secretly behind the scenes, they were continuing to pull their strings, and they were puppeteering the city and like, controlling like all aspects of it, the aspects in the light and the aspects in the dark, you know what I mean?

00:52:34.808 --> 00:52:41.908
Diego: And it wasn't until like Batman got in their face and in their business that suddenly now, you know, it causes a problem and a beef between them.

00:52:42.568 --> 00:52:54.148
Diego: But like they even tried to reach out to him, or not to reach out to him, they tried to reason with him and tell him is like, we're going to give you a chance, like back the heck up, you know?

00:52:54.968 --> 00:53:01.308
Diego: And we'll leave you alone to keep doing your thing, running around in your Batmobile, and we're going to do our thing, you know?

00:53:01.328 --> 00:53:07.868
Diego: And like, I don't know, how terrible is that?

00:53:12.748 --> 00:53:30.288
Diego: Like, if Batman wanted to mess with them, the Night of the Owls wouldn't have happened, which the Night of the Owls is this event in the comics where basically they have this warrior that does their secret killings, you know, when they need to take somebody out, like an assassin, called the Talon.

00:53:30.828 --> 00:53:32.288
Joshua: I mean, didn't the Talon...

00:53:32.308 --> 00:53:33.568
Diego: It was like one guy at a time.

00:53:33.728 --> 00:53:42.008
Joshua: Didn't he, like, specifically go out to Damien, and he was yapping at him?

00:53:42.028 --> 00:53:46.568
Diego: Uh, only after things started getting...

00:53:47.088 --> 00:53:48.528
Diego: So Batman started, like, getting...

00:53:50.768 --> 00:53:51.448
Diego: Seeking them out.

00:53:52.288 --> 00:53:56.468
Diego: It really was Batman that started seeking them out.

00:53:56.708 --> 00:54:03.288
Diego: And again, had he not gotten in their face and tried to take them down and all that, he...

00:54:04.268 --> 00:54:08.848
Diego: The Night of the Owls wouldn't have happened where they ended up, like, resurrecting all their, like, stash of talons.

00:54:09.288 --> 00:54:17.988
Diego: And suddenly there was, like, dozens of these super, you know, skilled warriors, zombies, going out, you know, across all the Gotham and stuff.

00:54:18.448 --> 00:54:22.028
Diego: But, like, it's almost like there's an ecosystem, right?

00:54:22.048 --> 00:54:26.108
Diego: And back to the whole kingpin thing, like, there's an ecosystem, and there's a...

00:54:26.348 --> 00:54:28.288
Diego: Everybody plays a role in the ecosystem.

00:54:28.308 --> 00:54:37.648
Diego: Yes, there is crime and there's bad stuff and whatever, but, like, things could be a lot worse if the people who are pulling the strings were not pulling the strings.

00:54:37.888 --> 00:54:44.208
Diego: And so I just wonder, like, this is one of those categories that just, you know, makes me wonder is, like, like, do we...

00:54:44.448 --> 00:54:50.788
Diego: If we take it out, I think the real risk is, like, imagine Gotham City, people pulling the strings from behind the scenes, the Court of Owls.

00:54:51.228 --> 00:54:53.788
Diego: You take away the Court of Owls, what happens?

00:54:54.928 --> 00:54:55.288
Joshua: Mm-hmm.

00:54:55.548 --> 00:54:56.688
Diego: Does the city collapse?

00:54:56.908 --> 00:54:58.368
Diego: What happens to the economy in Gotham?

00:54:58.828 --> 00:55:01.508
Diego: What happens to, like, the highest seats of power in Gotham?

00:55:01.528 --> 00:55:01.808
Diego: Like...

00:55:03.008 --> 00:55:06.548
Diego: Like, Batman doesn't even know who is a member of the Court of Owls.

00:55:06.608 --> 00:55:07.268
Diego: You know what I mean?

00:55:07.908 --> 00:55:14.968
Diego: So, like, you're risking, like, almost, like, ripping out a skeleton or a part of the skeleton from a body, and now what happens to that body?

00:55:14.988 --> 00:55:17.088
Diego: It's gonna collapse, it has no base, no foundation.

00:55:17.308 --> 00:55:17.768
Joshua: Yeah.

00:55:18.288 --> 00:55:20.768
Diego: So, like, what's the solution there?

00:55:20.788 --> 00:55:24.528
Diego: Restart Gotham from scratch without the criminal element?

00:55:24.548 --> 00:55:25.308
Diego: That's impossible.

00:55:25.648 --> 00:55:25.948
Joshua: Mm-hmm.

00:55:26.868 --> 00:55:28.428
Diego: So, it's a little bit conflicting, I think.

00:55:28.448 --> 00:55:32.568
Diego: It's a little bit difficult to come to a conclusion of, like, how wrong are they?

00:55:32.988 --> 00:55:35.648
Diego: Or are we always going to need somebody pulling those strings?

00:55:36.468 --> 00:55:38.148
Diego: I actually have, like, this head...

00:55:39.128 --> 00:55:47.208
Diego: not head cannon, but fantasy story in my head of, like, Batman having to take the place of the Court of Owls.

00:55:47.608 --> 00:55:52.028
Diego: Like, taking them down and then seeing things in Gotham slowly collapsing.

00:55:52.188 --> 00:55:53.328
Joshua: And so he asked to, like...

00:55:53.348 --> 00:55:58.488
Diego: realizing that, like, the Batm family becoming the new Court of Owls, basically, behind the scenes.

00:55:59.108 --> 00:56:00.508
Diego: I have this whole story in my head.

00:56:01.648 --> 00:56:02.568
Joshua: Yeah!

00:56:02.908 --> 00:56:04.388
Diego: Don't steal my story, Jits.

00:56:04.908 --> 00:56:05.628
Diego: I'm warning you.

00:56:06.428 --> 00:56:09.848
Diego: Anyway, so yeah, that's another interesting category for me.

00:56:10.528 --> 00:56:12.028
Diego: Any others in your list?

00:56:12.648 --> 00:56:14.148
Diego: Any kinds or categories?

00:56:14.668 --> 00:56:17.548
Joshua: This one's, like, kind of, like, pretty different.

00:56:19.388 --> 00:56:21.968
Joshua: I was gonna say Zuko from Avatar.

00:56:22.788 --> 00:56:25.108
Joshua: And in this one, he's kind of...

00:56:26.248 --> 00:56:34.388
Joshua: It's not really for the good of anybody else, but it's for, like, the personal, like, bettering...

00:56:35.028 --> 00:56:35.688
Joshua: Is that a word?

00:56:36.848 --> 00:56:37.888
Diego: Do you hear this?

00:56:37.988 --> 00:56:42.108
Joshua: Bettering and, like, redemption of his own character.

00:56:42.548 --> 00:56:47.168
Joshua: Because in the show, he got banished.

00:56:47.788 --> 00:56:51.588
Joshua: He got exiled, basically, from the Fire Nation.

00:56:52.208 --> 00:56:57.488
Joshua: And his whole thing is, I need to catch the Avatar to restore my honor.

00:56:58.168 --> 00:57:05.788
Joshua: Because, like, his dad banished him from the Fire Nation and basically said, You can come back once you found the Avatar.

00:57:07.028 --> 00:57:12.408
Joshua: And this whole thing, and his uncle was banished along with him.

00:57:13.748 --> 00:57:28.388
Joshua: And throughout him trying to find the Avatar, his uncle is kind of slowly planting ideas in him that are kind of making him a better person.

00:57:28.848 --> 00:57:36.848
Joshua: But the thing is, eventually, because in the Avatar, the Avatar needs to learn all four elements.

00:57:37.988 --> 00:57:41.508
Joshua: And he didn't have anybody to teach him firebending.

00:57:42.448 --> 00:57:55.228
Joshua: And after Zuko kind of comes to his senses, he goes over and he wants to join Team Avatar to teach Zuko fire or to teach Aang firebending.

00:57:55.988 --> 00:58:01.448
Joshua: And the thing is, they don't trust him because he's done a lot of bad things.

00:58:02.428 --> 00:58:10.388
Joshua: And it's kind of like you really think we would trust you after all of the lying that you've done.

00:58:11.288 --> 00:58:11.528
Joshua: Okay.

00:58:11.588 --> 00:58:12.248
Joshua: I feel like...

00:58:12.268 --> 00:58:13.428
Diego: Was he like legit or...

00:58:13.448 --> 00:58:14.048
Joshua: Yeah, he was.

00:58:14.288 --> 00:58:14.508
Joshua: Oh.

00:58:14.828 --> 00:58:28.648
Joshua: But I feel like villains that have changed after doing so many bad things, they're destined to really never have anyone trust them again.

00:58:28.708 --> 00:58:30.028
Diego: Yeah, like Vegeta, right?

00:58:30.148 --> 00:58:30.548
Joshua: Yeah.

00:58:30.748 --> 00:58:31.128
Diego: Yeah.

00:58:31.688 --> 00:58:32.648
Diego: Yeah, that's a tough one.

00:58:33.368 --> 00:58:35.488
Diego: I feel like Piccolo got away pretty well with that one.

00:58:35.608 --> 00:58:36.868
Joshua: Yeah, Piccolo.

00:58:36.888 --> 00:58:39.708
Diego: Like, dude was literally being called to babysit a child.

00:58:40.328 --> 00:58:42.628
Joshua: He's like, yeah.

00:58:43.068 --> 00:58:48.128
Diego: And just a few years back, he was a demon king trying to kill everybody.

00:58:48.328 --> 00:59:14.908
Diego: Anyway, yeah, but the point also of being misunderstood, I think being misunderstood and being classified as a villain because you're misunderstood, like I think, for example, of the zombie-like horde of I Am Legend, where the whole progression of that movie, basically, like you see Robert Neville, Will Smith's character, as the hero, you know, surrounded by all these horrible creatures.

00:59:14.908 --> 00:59:22.268
Diego: And then by the end of it, you come to realize that, like, no, these creatures actually have an entire organizational structure, social structure.

00:59:22.728 --> 00:59:25.908
Diego: And like they even pair up, you know, with mates and stuff like that.

00:59:26.008 --> 00:59:34.308
Diego: And he had captured the wife of or the partner of one of them, like the leader guy of the little group.

00:59:34.388 --> 00:59:35.988
Diego: And that's a really interesting one, right?

00:59:36.008 --> 00:59:43.308
Diego: It's like how long the story goes before you realize, like, oh, no, these people are just like kind of trying to live their lives in a way.

00:59:44.448 --> 00:59:52.248
Diego: And they're like, you are the intruder basically, you know, in their world, because they're kind of taken over already.

00:59:53.408 --> 00:59:56.148
Diego: And that kind of applies to most zombie hordes, I think.

00:59:58.128 --> 01:00:09.108
Diego: Like, we depict them always as monsters, but I mean, through conquest, don't you kind of at some point become the majority?

01:00:09.128 --> 01:00:11.908
Diego: Like, you're kind of, you rule the planet now, you know?

01:00:13.108 --> 01:00:14.688
Diego: So who's the villain at that point?

01:00:14.708 --> 01:00:15.088
Diego: Who knows?

01:00:16.308 --> 01:00:22.908
Diego: And then the last one that I have is the example of, I don't know how to classify this one, but it's the example of Baron Mordo from Doctor Strange.

01:00:26.068 --> 01:00:27.128
Joshua: Is that the guy who...

01:00:27.148 --> 01:00:29.788
Joshua: I've only watched Doctor Strange once, and I kind of forgot.

01:00:29.848 --> 01:00:43.688
Joshua: Is that the guy who, like, Doctor Strange, like, he, like, walked through a thing, he, like, walked through a brick wall, and then Doctor Strange, like, reversed time, and then he walked back, and then he got, like, trapped in the wall?

01:00:46.268 --> 01:00:50.408
Diego: You're talking about the dude who got, like, his eyes all purple and stuff.

01:00:50.428 --> 01:00:50.728
Joshua: Yeah.

01:00:50.848 --> 01:00:55.828
Diego: No, not, like, the villain of the thing, but Mordo is one of the sorcerers.

01:00:56.188 --> 01:00:59.948
Joshua: Oh, is that the guy who appeared in Multiverse of Madness?

01:00:59.968 --> 01:01:00.968
Diego: Yeah, yeah, same guy, right.

01:01:01.348 --> 01:01:09.608
Diego: And so, like, at the end of Doctor Strange 1, which storyline was completely dropped and forgotten for Doctor Strange 2, he was gonna, like...

01:01:10.688 --> 01:01:15.268
Diego: He took it upon himself, like, he realized, he realized there's too many sorcerers.

01:01:17.288 --> 01:01:32.948
Diego: And, like, I can't really blame the guy, because you have people who were going, learning sorcery, becoming essentially, like, very powerful beings, and then, like, going away and just, like, living, using their sorcery for their own pleasure, you know, for their own needs.

01:01:32.968 --> 01:01:35.448
Joshua: Yeah, like that one guy who had the messed-up knee.

01:01:36.008 --> 01:01:38.168
Diego: It wasn't a messed-up knee, like, he was a paraplegic.

01:01:38.228 --> 01:01:41.908
Diego: And so, through magic, he was making himself be able to live a normal life.

01:01:41.928 --> 01:01:43.148
Diego: And, hey, that's, like...

01:01:43.908 --> 01:01:47.208
Diego: I mean, you can't blame him for wanting to do that once he acquired those skills.

01:01:48.348 --> 01:01:52.988
Diego: But, like, not everybody has, like, such a noble cause for themselves.

01:01:53.008 --> 01:01:56.928
Diego: Like, some other people are clearly going to use it for more selfish purposes.

01:01:57.148 --> 01:01:57.508
Joshua: Yeah.

01:01:57.928 --> 01:01:58.708
Diego: And, um...

01:01:59.628 --> 01:02:10.588
Diego: And so, like, him taking on that mission of, like, I'm gonna basically steal the magic away from all these sorcerers who don't deserve it, it's kind of a righteous cause in a way.

01:02:10.708 --> 01:02:15.608
Diego: Because, like, if you really think about it, I feel like that's a really big risk, having a whole bunch of sorcerers out there.

01:02:16.048 --> 01:02:16.308
Joshua: Mm-hmm.

01:02:16.808 --> 01:02:18.688
Diego: That's a pretty dangerous thing.

01:02:18.708 --> 01:02:26.068
Diego: So, yeah, I can't really blame the guy for wanting to do that after, like, all the chaos that happened in Doctor Strange 1.

01:02:26.088 --> 01:02:31.748
Diego: Like, it had to do with how many people had the abilities of sorcerers.

01:02:31.768 --> 01:02:33.928
Diego: So, yeah, very interesting, man.

01:02:34.328 --> 01:02:40.008
Diego: Oh, the last one I had was Palpatine.

01:02:40.688 --> 01:02:47.908
Diego: Some Star Wars fans are of the mind that Palpatine wasn't actually, like, that far off in his thoughts.

01:02:51.088 --> 01:02:51.428
Diego: No?

01:02:51.588 --> 01:02:52.968
Joshua: I don't know about this one.

01:02:53.128 --> 01:02:54.448
Diego: Is he too Hitlerish for you?

01:02:55.148 --> 01:02:56.008
Joshua: Yeah.

01:02:57.168 --> 01:02:58.628
Joshua: I don't know about that one.

01:02:59.128 --> 01:03:06.168
Diego: I mean, look, all I know is Jedi were kind of getting to a whack point by that point.

01:03:06.188 --> 01:03:11.168
Joshua: Well, I mean, Jedi were, like, there's no such thing as pure good.

01:03:11.628 --> 01:03:11.908
Diego: Right.

01:03:11.928 --> 01:03:18.448
Joshua: And there's, well, I don't know if there's no such thing as pure evil, but there's definitely no such thing as pure good.

01:03:19.388 --> 01:03:19.808
Diego: Right.

01:03:20.048 --> 01:03:21.128
Diego: I see what you're saying.

01:03:21.628 --> 01:03:22.568
Joshua: So, I mean...

01:03:23.308 --> 01:03:28.908
Diego: Palpatine was another one of those cases, I think, of, like, control through, I mean, like, trying to bring peace.

01:03:28.928 --> 01:03:30.068
Joshua: Peace through control?

01:03:30.088 --> 01:03:31.228
Diego: Yeah, exactly.

01:03:31.288 --> 01:03:34.428
Diego: Yeah, through power, you know, like, through force.

01:03:35.208 --> 01:03:36.988
Joshua: Yeah, like the 10th force.

01:03:37.048 --> 01:03:38.428
Diego: BFPs are all, you know, that type thing.

01:03:38.868 --> 01:03:39.928
Diego: BFPs are all kill you.

01:03:40.668 --> 01:03:41.048
Diego: Yikes.

01:03:41.188 --> 01:03:42.568
Diego: A little extreme, you know.

01:03:42.588 --> 01:03:46.188
Joshua: That's, like, kind of very knock, and it's very dictator.

01:03:46.208 --> 01:03:47.328
Joshua: I mean, he was.

01:03:47.348 --> 01:03:48.828
Diego: He definitely was a dictator, yes.

01:03:48.848 --> 01:03:50.408
Joshua: He quite literally was.

01:03:50.428 --> 01:03:50.828
Diego: Yes, yes, yes.

01:03:50.928 --> 01:03:52.048
Joshua: Exactly a dictator.

01:03:52.068 --> 01:03:52.928
Diego: He was a dictator.

01:03:53.708 --> 01:03:58.408
Diego: Although he did retain a whole Congress, a whole, like, Galactic Congress Senate.

01:03:58.708 --> 01:04:00.188
Joshua: He's kind of, like, an anomaly.

01:04:00.208 --> 01:04:01.708
Diego: I don't know.

01:04:02.508 --> 01:04:10.688
Diego: The dude is interesting because, like, when he says that he wants to establish order and peace in the galaxy, I kind of believe him.

01:04:11.288 --> 01:04:14.428
Diego: It's just, like, again, the methods are horrendous, you know?

01:04:14.448 --> 01:04:14.808
Joshua: Yeah.

01:04:14.968 --> 01:04:23.688
Diego: But, like, he feels the same burden that, like, that the Templars feel, or that, you know, Dr.

01:04:23.708 --> 01:04:24.568
Diego: Doom feels.

01:04:24.588 --> 01:04:29.448
Diego: Like, people were out to conquer the world because they want to bring order to it.

01:04:30.228 --> 01:04:34.788
Diego: It's just that, yeah, their tactics are kind of rough.

01:04:36.068 --> 01:04:36.708
Joshua: Yeah.

01:04:36.948 --> 01:04:40.808
Diego: So, out of all these villains that we talked about, like, who's the one that you're like, you know what, bro?

01:04:41.508 --> 01:04:42.408
Diego: You get the pass.

01:04:42.428 --> 01:04:44.208
Diego: Who are you giving it to?

01:04:45.168 --> 01:04:48.748
Joshua: Like, you get the passes, and, like, you weren't really that evil at all.

01:04:49.168 --> 01:04:52.708
Diego: You know, or your actions were justified.

01:04:52.868 --> 01:04:53.968
Diego: Who would you give it to?

01:04:57.128 --> 01:05:04.188
Joshua: I feel like if the Avengers hadn't brought all the people back...

01:05:04.488 --> 01:05:05.028
Diego: Yeah...

01:05:05.028 --> 01:05:05.028
Joshua: .

01:05:05.028 --> 01:05:06.808
Joshua: that Thanos had snapped...

01:05:07.108 --> 01:05:07.548
Diego: Yeah...

01:05:07.548 --> 01:05:07.548
Joshua: .

01:05:07.548 --> 01:05:10.608
Joshua: I feel like his actions would be justified.

01:05:10.848 --> 01:05:11.248
Diego: Really?

01:05:12.468 --> 01:05:15.988
Diego: In a few dozen generations, maybe?

01:05:18.628 --> 01:05:19.808
Diego: I'm just saying, man.

01:05:19.888 --> 01:05:20.468
Diego: I'm just saying.

01:05:20.488 --> 01:05:21.608
Diego: Why are you putting it into your chin?

01:05:21.628 --> 01:05:22.728
Diego: What's going on there with your jaw?

01:05:22.748 --> 01:05:23.068
Diego: Are you okay?

01:05:23.088 --> 01:05:28.648
Joshua: Okay, I feel like, honestly, probably Payne...

01:05:29.448 --> 01:05:29.448
Joshua: .

01:05:29.448 --> 01:05:35.148
Joshua: who is the guy who wanted to unite the world through shared pain.

01:05:36.268 --> 01:05:46.188
Joshua: Because in the end, everybody would have felt the same thing, and everybody would have...

01:05:46.768 --> 01:05:54.528
Joshua: Not just physical pain, but losing people and everything, which people would have to die for that.

01:05:54.868 --> 01:06:03.328
Joshua: But everybody left would have a strong connection with each other, and it would have united the world for the rest of time, kind of.

01:06:06.028 --> 01:06:11.048
Joshua: But, I mean, he never really got to fulfill his plan.

01:06:11.588 --> 01:06:11.948
Diego: Right.

01:06:12.208 --> 01:06:18.568
Joshua: But I feel like if he did, the world would honestly grow stronger.

01:06:21.348 --> 01:06:31.068
Diego: I'll probably give the past to Magneto, because I feel like, you know, Dude suffered enough in the past.

01:06:31.468 --> 01:06:34.008
Diego: His people, Jews, you know, suffered enough.

01:06:35.428 --> 01:06:44.428
Diego: And he knows what humanity is capable of when there's prejudice and racism or whatever schism.

01:06:44.788 --> 01:06:45.688
Joshua: Religionism?

01:06:47.288 --> 01:06:48.688
Diego: No, that's not religionism.

01:06:49.128 --> 01:06:50.568
Diego: The real religionism is at work.

01:06:51.408 --> 01:06:52.068
Joshua: Are you sure?

01:06:52.088 --> 01:06:53.208
Diego: I'm pretty sure it's not.

01:06:53.668 --> 01:07:03.828
Diego: But anyway, yeah, I give it to him because I feel like he knows the dark side of humanity, and he's really kind of doing what he's doing for the sake of survival.

01:07:03.828 --> 01:07:07.928
Diego: And he doesn't trust humanity to have the best interests of mutants at heart.

01:07:08.848 --> 01:07:12.108
Diego: And I kind of got to give it to him, and I got to give him the pass a little bit.

01:07:12.228 --> 01:07:15.488
Diego: I mean, I don't condone acts of terror, obviously, but...

01:07:22.308 --> 01:07:22.988
Joshua: What?

01:07:23.088 --> 01:07:34.508
Diego: Like, I feel like if people were to not label him villain and terrorist, and instead be like, hold on, hold on, let's have a conversation here, come here.

01:07:35.888 --> 01:07:40.508
Diego: All right, you know, give you your own nation or something for your people.

01:07:40.508 --> 01:07:45.708
Diego: Like, we acknowledge that there's something really critical and different going on here.

01:07:45.728 --> 01:07:55.208
Diego: We acknowledge that you guys are, like, a new form of human, and that you need space to thrive and grow in peace without feeling any kind of threats.

01:07:55.228 --> 01:07:57.308
Diego: Like, you know, would you like to rule that nation?

01:07:57.328 --> 01:07:58.668
Diego: I don't know, something like that.

01:07:58.688 --> 01:08:06.948
Diego: Like, approach him more in a diplomatic way as opposed to trying to, like, classify him immediately as a villain because he's trying to defend his people.

01:08:06.968 --> 01:08:13.228
Joshua: But then again, humans will always respond to new things.

01:08:15.448 --> 01:08:17.128
Joshua: As dangerous.

01:08:17.248 --> 01:08:17.868
Diego: Always, yeah.

01:08:18.208 --> 01:08:36.828
Joshua: Because, like, that's why I always, like, in alien movies, I always hate, because, like, it's, like, in every movie where when the aliens first land, like, without even doing anything, humans, like, the military always, like, fires at them.

01:08:36.948 --> 01:08:37.468
Diego: Right, right.

01:08:38.048 --> 01:08:39.728
Diego: We always take the first shot, yeah.

01:08:40.228 --> 01:08:45.928
Joshua: And so that's just, like, why, that's just how, like, humans respond for some reason.

01:08:45.948 --> 01:08:46.608
Diego: Yeah, absolutely.

01:08:46.808 --> 01:08:51.648
Diego: I really think you should give a chance to be hugged by that face hugger.

01:08:51.668 --> 01:08:53.588
Diego: Like, give him a chance.

01:08:53.588 --> 01:08:55.868
Diego: You don't know what his intentions are.

01:08:56.628 --> 01:08:58.108
Diego: Let him hug your face a little bit.

01:08:58.848 --> 01:08:59.688
Diego: Just let him hug you.

01:09:06.062 --> 01:09:10.642
Diego: Thank you all for joining us for this episode of Geekology 101.

01:09:10.662 --> 01:09:15.942
Diego: This whole topic of villains who kind of had a point is, it's a controversial one.

01:09:16.722 --> 01:09:25.302
Diego: It's a pretty dicey one, you know, you don't know at some point where to draw the line between like, yeah, dude, you're doing some horrible stuff, so I'm not gonna give you the pass.

01:09:25.662 --> 01:09:28.322
Diego: Or, you know, like, I kind of get where you're coming from.

01:09:28.342 --> 01:09:32.482
Diego: So very curious to see what you all out there have to say about this.

01:09:32.502 --> 01:09:41.402
Diego: Like, is there a villain that you're particularly sympathetic to, that maybe, like, you want to toss us a name and see who you back up?

01:09:41.722 --> 01:09:45.222
Diego: If you do, you can get in contact with us by going over to our website.

01:09:45.242 --> 01:09:46.602
Diego: There you can find out about us.

01:09:46.622 --> 01:09:56.082
Diego: You can find out how to subscribe to the podcast, find links to our YouTube channel, and then all the way at the bottom, you're gonna be able to see a contact form that you can fill out and send us a message.

01:09:56.102 --> 01:09:59.602
Diego: So let us know which villain gets the pass from you guys.

01:09:59.622 --> 01:10:06.602
Diego: The Geekology website is geekology101.com, and you can hit us up there through that contact form, or...

01:10:07.002 --> 01:10:13.642
Joshua: If you want to contact us through more traditional means, you can hit us up at geekology101podcasts.gmail.com.

01:10:13.822 --> 01:10:16.722
Diego: Thank you all for listening, and we will catch you in the next episode.

01:10:18.722 --> 01:10:19.502
Diego: Just let it hug you.